Is This The End Of DVC Rentals?

[eticketplease]

In that scenario, I’d be personally using 75% of all the points I own annually for my own personal use (not renting them out), and renting out 25%.

If the dues were $8.67pp, then I could rent 25% of my total points for ~$35pp.

This year BWV is $9.06pp, so if I only rented 25% of my total points I could charge as much $36.24pp and still remain legit.

What are you basing your Annual Dues on that you are not supposed to be going over?
The total amount of points on the contract or the rental?

In the example I gave previously with a 40 point contract dues are $362.40 and a rental using 25% of my points (10) and dues for that rental would be $90.06

So the rental of $350 is way above the amount for the Annual Dues based on the points used.
It is slightly less than the annual dues for the whole $40 contract.

It doesn't matter the amount of points on the contract renting 25% of points at $35 is always going to bring in more than the Annual Dues for that rental and very close to the whole amount of the dues for the contract.

100 point contract for simplicity sakes means 25 points rented at $35 = $875 and dues for just the points rented is $226.50 and for the entire contract is $906

That is why I was asking if you are basing it on the dues for the contract or just for the rental.

 

[eticketplease]

This is the part where DVC will explain to you how ‘Gross rental income’ exceeding the annual cost of all dues runs afoul of still being ‘for personal use’:


It is documented within their current policy of what constitutes a commercial enterprise.

I'm hoping @Sandisw gets hers and posts it so we can all review.

 

[Tatebeck]

What are you basing your Annual Dues on that you are not supposed to be going over?
The total amount of points on the contract or the rental?

In the example I gave previously with a 40 point contract dues are $362.40 and a rental using 25% of my points (10) and dues for that rental would be $90.06

So the rental of $350 is way above the amount for the Annual Dues based on the points used.
It is slightly less than the annual dues for the whole $40 contract.

It doesn't matter the amount of points on the contract renting 25% of points at $35 is always going to bring in more than the Annual Dues for that rental and very close to the whole amount of the dues for the contract.

100 point contract for simplicity sakes means 25 points rented at $35 = $875 and dues for just the points rented is $226.50 and for the entire contract is $906

That is why I was asking if you are basing it on the dues for the contract or just for the rental.

It's the entire amount of dues in all contracts for an owner

 

[Sandisw]

What are you basing your Annual Dues on that you are not supposed to be going over?
The total amount of points on the contract or the rental?

In the example I gave previously with a 40 point contract dues are $362.40 and a rental using 25% of my points (10) and dues for that rental would be $90.06

So the rental of $350 is way above the amount for the Annual Dues based on the points used.
It is slightly less than the annual dues for the whole $40 contract.

It doesn't matter the amount of points on the contract renting 25% of points at $35 is always going to bring in more than the Annual Dues for that rental and very close to the whole amount of the dues for the contract.

100 point contract for simplicity sakes means 25 points rented at $35 = $875 and dues for just the points rented is $226.50 and for the entire contract is $906

That is why I was asking if you are basing it on the dues for the contract or just for the rental.

I asked for clarification and I was specifically told that it’s total dues on points owned, not on those rented.

If my annual dues are $7k, then I can create rental income as high as that to offset the dues.

Basically, the notion is that if your purpose for renting is to reduce the cost off your yearly dues, then you aren’t in it for a commercial reason….

 

[Sandisw]

Thank you for providing the link to the section.

Nothing in writing there shows that you can't rent for more $$ than your annual dues.

Hopefully @Sandisw will receive the further documentation that was requested and we will know for sure.

Just be aware, that DVC still gets to determine what they consider commercially

Right now, they are telling owners it renting above dues that counts as commercial.

And hopefully the document that I requested has been updated to clarify this.

But, even if an owner doesn’t have that specifically, they do have a document that says you can’t rent frequently or regularly, and DVC has now said that renting beyond dues is commercial fits that restriction.

Obviously each owner makes their own decision on what they want to do with information given to them!

 

[Genie+]

What are you basing your Annual Dues on that you are not supposed to be going over?
The total amount of points on the contract or the rental?

In the example I gave previously with a 40 point contract dues are $362.40 and a rental using 25% of my points (10) and dues for that rental would be $90.06

So the rental of $350 is way above the amount for the Annual Dues based on the points used.
It is slightly less than the annual dues for the whole $40 contract.

$350 would be under your annual bill of $362.40 so that would be fine if that is all you owned/rented.

If you owned and rented more points than the example 10pts, you’d need to tally up all the income generated renting your DVC that year and make sure that amount stays smaller than all the dues you pay annually (if wanting to remain ‘legit’).

Basically this DVCM strategy revolves around the idea of personal use. We need to be using our membership primarily for our own vacations and personal use. That being said, DVC still left a pretty wide allowance for how much we can rent before we risk getting flagged for commercial use. We are yet to see how exactly DVC proceeds with this enhanced enforcement, but all things considered we’d likely see someone using their points 50/50 between personal/rentals not have any issue, and someone using their points 10/90 (10% personal and 90% otherwise) likely to get flagged. Of course in that latter example the person can claim they only rented to 80% of their annual dues but they best be prepared to prove it.

It doesn't matter the amount of points on the contract renting 25% of points at $35 is always going to bring in more than the Annual Dues for that rental and very close to the whole amount of the dues for the contract.

100 point contract for simplicity sakes means 25 points rented at $35 = $875 and dues for just the points rented is $226.50 and for the entire contract is $906

That is why I was asking if you are basing it on the dues for the contract or just for the rental.

It seems to be based on 2 things - One member’s dues bill, and that member’s gross rental income. That’s annually.

DVC can make reasonable assumptions about the patterns of activity they see. I doubt anybody using at least nearly half of the points they control has anything to worry about.

It’s when the majority of the points keep getting used in ways that appear to be other than personal. Like someone using 600pts a year for their own personal friends/family vacations but they own 2,500pts and have been renting out nearly 2k pts/yr, that case would not surprise me to get a call/correspondence.

Personal use. You can cover ALL of your dues doing rentals, no problem. I’m going to go out on a limb and say highly likely no problem to earn more than your dues IF you’re using at least half the points you control for clearly personal use.

We can use our membership for renting - up to paying for all of our annual dues. That much they still consider being ‘personal use’.

 

[eticketplease]

So I have only rented once but I used all of the years points and had to borrow some so mine was certainly over that threshold for the one contract but not of all my contracts. Based on what @Sandisw and @Genie+ said I’m assuming I could do that down the road since I shouldn’t be on their radar.

I certainly don’t plan to rent anytime in the near future but always nice to know your options.

 

[Sandisw]

So I have only rented once but I used all of the years points and had to borrow some so mine was certainly over that threshold for the one contract but not of all my contracts. Based on what @Sandisw and @Genie+ said I’m assuming I could do that down the road since I shouldn’t be on their radar.

I certainly don’t plan to rent anytime in the near future but always nice to know your options.

As long as the total income of your rentals does not exceed all the dues for the points you have an ownership interest in, it’s going to be seen as within the rules.

My guess is that the number of owners who actually are even renting to offset dues is pretty small because that still requires the initial purchase of more points.

The ones renting in excess of dues on a regular basis are doing it to make money and that is what DVC wants to and should be stopping.

 

[Chuck S]

Since this thread seems to be mostly populated by DVC Members, not your average renter, I would suggest the discussion be continued in the long, long thread. The link to it being a story of USA Today is interesting, though.

Here is a direct link to that LONG thread: https://www.disboards.com/threads/dvc-t-c-personal-use-only-thread-to-discuss.3968373/

 

[Dakota731]

I’m going to answer this and then I’d go to the thread we are discussing it.

I can’t answer if enforcement will happen, but based on my extensive conversations so far and what will occur in response to my certified letter requesting review of documents DVC has on file, I would say yes because that is the purpose.

Now, depending on what people were hoping to see DVc, and how they would decide what level or renting is or is not okay, they may not be thrilled with where DVC has landed

But, the big gigantic thread has updates from what I have learned, and what I have seen others post having been given similar info.

If Disney really wanted to stop this, all they have to do is get their massive legal department to threaten online sites where DVC points are being rented commercially. I will check back to this thread a year from now, but I really doubt Disney is going to be checking John Doe’s points to see if he’s renting more than his dues to his brother in law or not. This is so vague that I would bet it’s just to placate disgruntled owners without really taking much action. A private company is not required to give someone copies of their documents because a certified letter was sent. The Freedom of Information Act is for federal agencies.

 

[Sandisw]

If Disney really wanted to stop this, all they have to do is get their massive legal department to threaten online sites where DVC points are being rented commercially. I will check back to this thread a year from now, but I really doubt Disney is going to be checking John Doe’s points to see if he’s renting more than his dues to his brother in law or not. This is so vague that I would bet it’s just to placate disgruntled owners without really taking much action. A private company is not required to give someone copies of their documents because a certified letter was sent. The Freedom of Information Act is for federal agencies.

Owners have the right to rent and DVCs job is to make sure whatever definiton they use to define commercial purpose in relation to the contract is reasonable.

It has nothing to do with the brokers, unless those brokers are renting their own points to the degree it’s commercial.

DVC can’t go after a broker as an intermediary in helping owners rent reservations on their memberships because they are legally licensed business allowed and governed under FL 721 timeshare law.

In terms of the records? They absolutely are required to provide owners access to the ones related our ownership and the POS…contract…as well as FL timeshare requires them to open them up to owners.

It sounds like you may not be familiar with DVC and its contract.

But, the record I have asked to review is part of the associations records bs as an owner I am legally entitled to it.

 

[Dakota731]

I’m going to answer this and then I’d go to the thread we are discussing it.

I wasn’t speaking about brokers. Online bloggers have posted that people have been allowed to purchase large amounts of DVC points then rent them out at high costs online. Some of these commercial renters own thousands of points (possibly tens of thousands) and are incredibly efficient at exploiting loopholes to enhance commercial value. This has been going on for years and could have been easily stopped and enforced. This issue was addressed in 2007 yet no one has seen or heard anything about it ever being enforced https://www.disneytouristblog.com/crackdown-disney-vacation-club-point-rental-commercial-businesses/
We’re not talking about small time owners who rent out their points once in a while when they can’t visit WDW. These are sophisticated online commercial entities that have been around for years.

 

[Genie+]

I wasn’t speaking about brokers. Online bloggers have posted that people have been allowed to purchase large amounts of DVC points then rent them out at high costs online. Some of these commercial renters own thousands of points (possibly tens of thousands) and are incredibly efficient at exploiting loopholes to enhance commercial value. This has been going on for years and could have been easily stopped and enforced. This issue was addressed in 2007 yet no one has seen or heard anything about it ever being enforced https://www.disneytouristblog.com/crackdown-disney-vacation-club-point-rental-commercial-businesses/
We’re not talking about small time owners who rent out their points once in a while when they can’t visit WDW. These are sophisticated online commercial entities that have been around for years.

This issue was addressed in 2007 with the policy in place at that time.

The way the contracts are written, ‘personal use only’ and ‘commercial use prohibited’ are constants. What is not necessarily a constant is the policy DVC adopts to clarify what they have determined to be crossing the line out of personal use and into the prohibited commercial use territory. It’s a way to keep the entire membership on the same page, at any point in time. The DVC landscape continues evolving. They left themselves room to update that policy as they see fit. At some point that 2007 policy disappeared altogether. I’m not sure what they had in the interim but it seems 2025 is the year DVC chose to have the membership revisit what ‘personal use’ actually means.